Most Agents Miss This: How to Truly Serve Your Clients

So much real estate coaching and training focuses on being a good prospector. And I think that the key to success is being a good practitioner. People are really disarmed about geography, which we want them disarmed. And that's not a sales tactic. Physicians want people comfortable, so they tell them the truth. Selling is what happens when I'm on the phone or face to face with a buyer or a buyer's agent. Marketing is all the things we do to get on the phone or face to face. We just finished up recording our conversation with Jason O'Neal, the founder of the Circle R. Jason is a behemoth in Indianapolis real estate, specifically in the luxury brand. For those of you who are trying to build something bigger than yourself, want to learn how to be more relational, how to communicate and drive a product better, this episode's for you. You're 100% going to walk away with more knowledge on how to uh deliver a better service. I don't care what industry you're in, you should be listening to Jason and getting to know him better. Let's get right into it. Jason, thanks for coming to the podcast, man. Thanks for having me. I'm excited about this. It'll be fun. Tell me what is the value of a realer that seems to be that's so I've been doing this for 20 years and and that has changed dramatically in in my time. So it's a it's a great question, right? So when I started, there was no such thing as his estimate, which is wild, right? Like I realtor. com, Zillow came online. So at one point in time, you know, realtors, real estate agents really helped you find a house. But then, you know, those of us that were on the the forefront of the industry kind of realized that they shouldn't be secrets, right? Like it we put signs in front of them. Um and so what what does it morph into? And and there are there are people that for a long time believed that the value was to help you find a house. And I think that if a real estate agent pitches that as their value or that's their value, they probably need to to rethink it. I think I think the value the ultimate value of a real estate agent distills down into, you know, what I talk about is delivering um clarity, confidence, and commitment, right? So they bring clarity to an otherwise confusing situation, right? they they they don't show up confident, but they give somebody confidence so that that person can go do their job. Because every single every single client that you're working with has responsibilities in their life, personally or professionally, that they need to tend to, otherwise they'd be selling their house on their own. And everybody wants somebody that's going to commit to their unique situation. So, but the other thing that you know I think that that real estate agents do and and all true professionals do this to some extent or another is they kind of keep you out of your own way, right? Like those of us that are in the industry like we could do a lot of contracting work, but sometimes it makes more sense to hire a general contractor because we'd spend so much time like, "Hey, let's what if we did it this way or that way?" And you know, we you're basically paying for somebody else's intellectual shortcuts in a lot of aspects of life. So often I watch clients just stub their toes. It's like h here's the iceberg. Let's move it. Here's the the path to get forward and it can come down to equity situations, right? You get a divorce after buying a house just a year ago and you're upside down on equity and you need a guide to to steward you through that. Say it's gonna be okay, right? And and wrap your arms around them uh and take them through. So, I I love that answer. What happens? Let's paint a scenario. I'm a seller. Like, Jason, why should you list my house when I I could just put it on Facebook? I know thousands of people that would want my house. What are you going to do for me that adds value? Well, so hopefully we don't we don't get there, right? Like like there should be a lot of conversations that happen before that. But if if that's the that's kind of an aggressive phone I mean, I've received that phone call before. I'm like, "Well, you picked up the phone and called me like um Yeah. So, um but I'm like, look, what's maybe I'm not the best option for you. Maybe Facebook is the best option for you, but what are your like why do you want to sell your house? What just And so, you'll hear me say a lot. Catch me up to speed. What's Let's just calm down for a second. I I'll shoot you straight. If it makes sense to list your house with with me or somebody else, I'll tell you. If not, I'll tell you that, too. But catch me up to speed. What's what's going on? Why you selling?" M so and that should lead itself into well you know I don't have to sell. You're going to hear that a lot, right? I don't I don't have to sell. We don't Well, but you you call you're interviewing three agents, right? And you're willing to put a sign out in front of your yard so that there's there's some motivation there and you might find out well look we got a big house and you know I only go to the basement to make sure it hasn't flooded and we live in the main floor. or we need a main floor master, having a hip replaced, uh job transfer, and I work from home, getting a divorce, like you said, there's usually a reason behind the reason. And then I think you take it into um timing, right? So, what would be the ideal timing? See, we as as real estate agents know that um time and I think I hope a lot of you know homeowners and and uh uh home buyers and sellers listen to to this too because time is so critical in the in the equation that it I think it's more important than price. It it really is because you know yeah you you want to list a house for $400,000. Okay. If you get $400,000 and they want you to move out tomorrow, can you do that? Well, no. Right. Like I can't move tomorrow. Yeah. So, but that's what determines the price. Sure. Which is $400,000. And so, we know that. That's what I mean. We know, we know that that timing can You mentioned earlier, by the way, what I love about your process is you take away the usual realtor uh smoke and mirrors of like CAS, appraisal lingual, and just like all this vocabulary BS and make it very simple to like where are you trying to move to? If you're going from A to B, how can we go in the straightest line versus around here? And sometimes when I talk to real estate agents, they want to start talking about, you know, quartz versus granite or, you know, little tiny things you can do to go from, you know, put $100 in and hopefully make $250 back on the sale. And I'm like, you're missing the point. We're talking about big picture their life. They have kids and a job. And and what I like about your strategy is you boil it down to those very simple things. Um, what I'm fascinated by is how you get to the reason behind the reason quickly. Like they're saying they want to sell, but they don't really have to sell. But really, there's this beneath. How do you get to that emotional wavelength with people quicker? So, I think you you start asking high level questions and then you drill down, right? Like, okay, why is that important? I I've got a friend who he he he's a financial adviser and he's super great at his job and and he is he claims that the best thing that he's does he's like okay why if you can ask three or four why questions you're going to get to you're going to get to where you need to be right and some people just come out and tell you and then you can ask more questions I do think so I've had the privilege to see I don't know hundreds if not a thousands of of uh listing presentations and most most agents make them about themselves, right? Nobody cares about us. They make it a jerkoff contest. Yeah. Nobody Nobody Nobody cares about like your awards or how big your picture on your sign is or anything like that, right? That people people care about themselves. So, and people like to talk about themselves. So to that end, I think a good swing thought is that, you know, a a a good question is way better than any answer any day of the week. And a good question is like, so why is that important? Yeah, I think you just made it very simple, which is coming in with a genuine curiosity to understand versus to speak and to make points known. And I just heard like ask why more often and let them talk and let them air out their thoughts because then you can come in and sort through it versus trying to project on to them. Yeah. And so like what you what you might have heard me say or like if you're reading between the lines to Max's question is no, you can totally put it on Facebook, but I get that. Why'd you call me? Clarity. Well, you know what? I saw your ad or you sold my neighbor's house or actually, you know, you sold Steve's house and you know, Steve's my best friend and he said that I should call you before I do anything, right? Oh, yeah. He's a great guy. How's your house compared to Steve's? Way bigger. Way bigger. I've got a cooler bar. Did you build it yourself? No, no, no. I had a contractor do it. Overpaid for it and all that stuff, you know. And then it's more like, okay, so where you think about going? Yeah. Yeah. So, and I think that that the geography is also is also a it's a really disarming question. So, um you know, if you get like even a buyer lead on the phone, if they call in a sign or drive by or they call you from the internet, like the the best question you can ask is, "Oh, do you currently live in the area?" Like, people are really disarmed about about geography, which we want them disarmed. And that's not a sales tactic. It's um you know physicians want people comfortable so they tell them the truth. Mhm. So I know you were the top individual um real estate agent producer in 2019. Is that right? I think it was in 2017 I think again in 2021 and that just means without a team, right? Yeah. Okay. Um and most of that was in the Caramel North Side area. Yeah. North side of Indie. I mean our office is in Hamilton County so we do we do a lot there. So that's a lot of volume of real estate sold. a lot of transactions, a lot of very key relationships handled well. Um, just like the skill and execution required there. What does it take to get there? What did it take to have that year? I just a lot of hard work. You know, I'm I'm thinking about um one, you know, one particular client that that closed on a big transaction that year that um I I bumped into him at a at a street festival. I remember clear as day. My kid was crying. I knew his um his then wife from college and he and I had gone to high school together, but um he was maybe a few years older than me. And like two days later, he called me to sell a a very mainstream price house. And I think you know through over those the course of the next like seven or eight years we did three or four transactions together. Unfortunately their marriage split up they each bought a house and you know some other things happened but then he started to do really well in business and bought a big house. So there's a lot of stuff that that leads up to it. It's a lot of um you know stacking of credibility, right? And that's kind of how you look at your referrals too that you know you you do a good job and there's a reason you you do a good job. Um, and then people kind of count on you to Well, you told me this. We were having coffee the other day and you said it's less about generating new business, more about being a really good practitioner. Yeah. In working with quality what's in front of you? H how do you approach that differently than I guess most people? Yeah. So, so the conversation was um cuz Max, you weren't there, but the conversation was um that so much real estate coaching and training focuses on being a good prospector. And I think that the the key to success is is being a good practitioner. And the joke that I used, if I recall, was you fire your dentist, right? If your dentist is like, "Hey, do you know any do you know anybody with teeth?" Right? You're like, "Come on, man. Just I'm like I don't want to be here. I want my teeth cleaned. I'm going to come back, but I'm not looking to, you know, make your business better, right? You be really good at your job and if somebody comes to me and they have a have an issue, I'll I'll tell them about you. And I think real estate is is very similar to that. So being a good practitioner looks looks like understanding the purchase agreement, you know, understanding deal trends, understanding buyer trends, understanding pricing trends. Um, and they are they're just they're trends, right? Like I think we're we're in a you know some really weird deal trends right now where um how list price and and offer prices are coming in um versus how they did maybe a handful of years ago. So understanding that articulating it like it will it will set you apart. I mean and read the agreements [Music] understand them be able to explain them. The first real estate coaching I ever got, uh, the my mentor at the time said, "Print off the purchase agreement and read it out loud three times every morning." And I did. Felt silly reading it out, but I understand that document. I can call out the lines. And it's important when somebody calls and they're reviewing, you know, they want to put an offer on what is going to be their primary home and they're like, "Where's that term again? Where's, you know, this title contingency or whatever you're referring to?" What uh I think I'm most fascinated in is client centric systems. How are you able to manage relationships with people who maybe need more Jason? Right. They need you to be forward facing. How are you able to handle at a high level not only to earn the referral? I know what you're hinting at is if an agent's listening to this and they're not getting referred like you're just not that good at your job. you need to level up um for sure. Number one. Uh number two, you don't need to ask people for business. Business is going to come by doing a good job. What is the next layer of a client care piece or aspect look like for you? So I think the number one thing there is is be helpful, right? Like there there's a book, Joe Polish wrote it and Joe's a he's a great dude. It's called what's in it for them. I'm not sure you need to read the book because I think the title kind of sums it up. like the whole point is what's in it for them, not what's what's in it for you. So, um, with that in mind, I take the philosophy of front stage, backstage, right? So, front stage is when I'm out in front of, uh, clients or with clients, right? And the backstage is all the things that get done so that you can be out front with clients and you're not worrying about the backstage. A really really good um analogy is a is a singer, right? a musician. You have uh like who's who's huge right now, Post Malone, right? So, Post Malone has has one job to sing and he's a great singer and because he's been able to focus so much on the front stage and the uh and just his singing, he's turned into a collaborator, right? So, he's doing he's doing rap. He's doing stuff with Taylor Swift. He's doing country. And he he does not need to get his set from Washington DC to New York, right? He doesn't need to set it up. There there are people that do that. So, so he can focus on the front stage because I think that when I hear your question, it's it's the energy, right? How do you have the energy to be like fully attentive to somebody in the front stage? And it's all because of the backstage. And Post Malone, if we're using that as an example, right, he would crumble if he had to do all that stuff. Right. Right. It's overwhelming. The backstage frees you up to be spontaneous in in flow in the front stage. Yeah. And and you know, freedom, the way you're using it is um is an interesting thing because freedom is only created by more freedom. It's like yogurt, right? Or sourdough, right? You can only you you can't get yogurt if you don't have yogurt, right? And if you don't have freedom, you can't get more freedom. So that's what So the freedom to be able to be on the front stage, the freedom freedom to be able to sit and think, right? Because the backstage is handled is is what creates more freedom. It's it's not complicated, but it's hard to do. You don't ever want to walk into a listing appointment with a heavy backpack of crap that needs to be done, right? Oh, that contract needs signed. This needs sent there. the other listing that I'm working on down the road needs to also be staged and prepped and I got to prepare for that listing appointment. Uh what does that backend look like for you? How do you keep organized? Well, first to talk about talk about that backpack full of stuff, right? I I do think that it is as simple as and look the stuff that I'm the stuff that I've learned the intellectual shortcuts that I've created through the years. It's mostly because of mistakes, right? Uh, I clear as day. I remember walking into a listing appointment and like literally I mean this is so dumb. I'm walking up their driveway and I look at my phone like, "Hey, I'm just going to check, you know, check email one more time." Um, and it's like, "Hey, the, you know, we got bad news. The appraisal didn't come through. I'll call you in 20 minutes." And I'm like, "Right." Right. So, I tell people, don't even, you know, whatever gets you like in the right frame of mind. By the time you get in the car for that listing appointment, you need to be there, right? like no phone, listen to your your hype up music or a podcast or whatever. Um, that's so much about what I love what you're saying is so much about high performance is uh being of one mind like totally right here. Like if right now I'm going to I have a haircut after this. If I'm thinking about who's my stylist going to be, right, I'm like 20% doesn't have the same stylist every time. Yeah, it's great clubs. Let's not talk about it. I think that that um level of just like oneness of mind to in in real estate you can definitely tell when you're in flow with someone and you're on the same wavelength and when you're you're not. And what I notic is clients will do if they just start talking to someone um they might roll down that that fir that transaction with them and like do it but they're thinking I'll probably not use them again if they didn't get to that flow state and that comes from I think that being totally of one mind and present. What I've started to do, which I'm curious how you get into this mindset, is I will actually meditate and pray about the meeting I'm going to go into of just like let me release control, God, like enter into this conversation. Um, so we can be of one mind and spirit. It sounds really like highulutin, but like every time I do that and I even like imagine it like this, like let me be a conduit, the experience is so much ele so much more elevated. Yeah. And there's I mean there's another Yes. So I I I meditate. Um I do it regularly. So I don't know that I do it about like a specific appointment, but I will tell you that um and this is this is really apppropo to real estate is uh appreciation. So like when I say appreciation, what do you guys hear? Uh it's not a trick question, but I mean like a gift. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, gratitude is what I And what about now shifted to real estate. What do you think about when I say appreciation? More equity and home value. Something that grows in value, right? So appreciation is kind of like the freedom thing, right? So if when you actually when you appreciate somebody or you appreciate their situation or what they're going through, that also tends to grow. I do think that those those two definitions can converge um in you know persontoperson relationships and you know you don't need to do this but if you ever have to have a really hard conversation with somebody personally or professionally it's really beneficial when you're done meditating or or praying about it to you know write down five or 10 things that you appreciate about them and your conversation will be they don't even need to know you did it your conversation will be 10 times better. We were at a team meeting and there was an agent who was he had closed five or six deals in in a week and he was just weighed down and everybody's like what's going on, dude? Like what's the heart of the problem? He's like, "Well, this went wrong and this went wrong and this went wrong." And what it boiled down to after we all kind of rallied behind him was nobody appreciates my work. It's like, wait, do you appreciate your clients? Do you tell them like, "Hey, you were a great client." Um, he's like, "No, I don't do that." He started implementing that into his business. 10 times the energy shift to positive, right? Just implementing that. I love, as you're saying, 10% more appreciation into all of your expressions, even text, calls, everything will be elevated. I love that idea. Yeah. You don't have to ask for a review at that point. They're just raving, right? And they but and they'll be, you know, I do think that you can proactively set these these things up. Yeah. So, um, so these are dialogues that I use, but I think I think that somebody could actually like, um, make this part of the process of like, what does a good buyer look like? What does a good seller look like? And you'll hear this dialogue I I only hear it in, um, like usually from commercial brokers, like he's a he's a good good seller or real seller, right? Like in residential, it's people are kind of assumed that you're going to be a a real seller. um not just putting some kind of crazy number on something, but you know, what does it look like to be a good seller? And so I last week, two weeks ago, I had to remind um the sellers agent of like how good of buyers that that we've been. And I think it kind of caught him off guard because, right, it was one of those situations where just dumb stuff, right? They're supposed to leave the TVs and the mounts and maybe a few other things and they just don't. They take the TVs and the mounts and you're like, it's literally in the agreement. Um, and then the uh I'm like, well, put them back or give them a credit. Like, I don't know. And like, we'll give you two grand. I'm like, it's six TVs and they need to be hung, right? Like, why are we even negotiating about this? I mean, we've been, you know, really good buyers A, B, C, D, and E. And he's like, you're right. You're right. Sorry. Like, everyone's got their swords up. I'm like, "So, but you know, what does that look like? What does it look like to be a good buyer agent? What does it look like to be a good sellers agent?" And the buyer's agent stuff is tough, right? The the research that I've seen has indicated, and this was this is dated maybe like probably close to a year now of um agents or buyers have a really difficult time articulating what a good buyer agent does. I actually saw a list of like 20 things a buyer's agent does from like vetting your financing sources to doing CAS to talking about strategy with offers to like contract. It was a lot, but it was also like okay, I could see how someone who's like I'm going to go fix my go power wash my driveway could make the same decision of like I'm just going to go figure it out this and do it myself type of thing. Um but when you it's the sheer number of things it had. Yeah, the list wasn't 20. It was a list of 195 things. It's narrowly. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it. Um, so it's like you couldn't possibly as a consumer know how to do all of those at a high level. But I do think the question is valid valid and I would love to know your answer. Someone calls you. So I got this call a guy looking for a luxury home in uh Zensville. He said, "Why would I not just call 10 of the best agents and say, "Hey, bring me a deal." Uh, versus sign this BAA that my realtor friend just put in front of me. He asked me that question. Um, and I was supposed to answer it not as a realtor. He's like, "Tell me this as a friend. What you would suggest?" I know what I said. I'm just curious what you So, was this Was this a friend? This was a friend. What's What's his job? Uh, he owns um a tech startup that's doing pretty well, right? So, you know, I would I would say something along the lines of, "Yeah, you you can do that, right?" But I appreciate I appreciate you calling me. I think that if if you do that, you're going to be making a lot of phone calls because the only answer you're going to get to that is what somebody has in their brain or in their pipeline right then and there, right? you know, if you hire hopefully me, but you hire somebody to work for you. It's similar to when you sign a contract with, you know, if you sign a contract with the defense department, it's a totally different ballgame than if you as a tech company, if I call you up and say, "Hey, man, I'd like to uh I'd like to create an app." Um, if you create the app, I'm sure you can just voice AI that thing. Do that and then uh let me know and I'll I'll tell you if I'm interested in it. Mhm. Right. Where are you going to spend your your focus? So, you know, we're we're super busy. We're super active in the market, but the people that we are committed to are the people that have committed to working with us. It goes back to one of the three C's, the commitment, which I do think in the buyer agency lane, that's actually the most important one. I mean, clarity is pretty important. Confidence is somewhat important, too. But the commitment is even more important, I think, with buyers because it's a longer and bumpier road. And I told him, I said, "It's not that they're making this huge 30k commission from the final deal they put their name on and send it off to the seller." It was the 10 before that and the 25 they analyzed with you before and maybe got you in the door that they earned that final one. Cuz he was like saying, "Oh, this is so easy. They're just going to earn this huge commission." And I was like, "You're assuming you're going to do all the work." So, if that was true, I said, "If I signed up, I would be contacting the 15 top brokers in Zensville where you're looking, trying to find you something off market, and getting to work." And he's like, and I just said, "If you're not getting that from your buyer's agent, then yeah, it's probably not worth the value. So, you need to pick a better buyer agent. Probably the person that sent you that VA didn't demonstrate their value and their proposition, their value prop strong enough." Yeah. I that that buyer agency agreement is tough to get, you know, I think it's what do you think of the buyer agency agreements? Um people have a lot of questions on them. Yeah. Like them. Well, I do want to get back to where we were going, but then yeah, let's definitely talk about that. Um when they ask buyers, you know, did you have a good buyer agent? You know, the vast majority of them say, yeah, like, okay, what made him a great buyer agent? Well, I don't know. He return respond my text. It's like they're a plush toy for you. Like, right. So, I think like having that, you know, having the answers to to those questions is is super super valuable. Um, I think the buyer agency agreement is is fantastic from the standpoint that, you know, when we did it as a this state of Indiana, the Indiana Association of Realtors, it was like literally days before the settlement came out. So, we were kind of, you know, we were ahead of that, right? So being ahead of the curve um and what the intention of that was now the settlement changed some of the the dynamics of it but the intention of the buyer agency agreement is to you know so that agents and consumers understand what an agency relationship is what they can expect from you know from their their buyer agent and from them as a buyer. And I think that that lends itself into um you know hey do you know do you know what you pay a real estate agent for? Do you know what um do you know what agency is? Do you know what a good buyer agent does? I I am of the philosophy that a good buyer agent doesn't drop what they're doing at 7 p. m. on a Friday night and go to help you pack because your movers didn't show up because you hired some cheap movers, right? Like I and I know people that do that. Um, but you know, the fact that that you're getting into the house, that you're closing on time, that you got the house you wanted, that your your agent had enough um bedside manner and presence of mind to ask the questions to get your deal accepted, you know, or to at least find out about where you needed to be to get the deal done. Like, it's it's pretty valuable. But I think that I think that that we're struggling as an industry and um in our process to get the you know not to get but uh to have buyers kind of commit to you under that buyer agency agreement. I think there were still an adjustment period of the buyer agency agreements. I don't think there's a lot of um exposure and um I don't think the narrative has fully been established and there's some agents knocking it out of the park that are doing those consultations that are explaining their value and then backing it up. And there's a lot that are like, "Oh yeah, we have to do this." And they'll wait till right before they offer or even under contract, right? And I've I've done that before. That's not that's the cheap way of doing it. Um, but there was a problem with nobody knowing how they were getting paid. It was just some hidden number on the on the MLS and you're just kind of out shopping together and there's just like no knowledge of the exchange value. So, bringing it above board I think was the right move. I just think there needs to be more of a solid um coordinated front from um the real estate industry on what these are for, what these are about, and why we like them. Because I think half of the realtors, and I've even done this myself, will say, "Oh, yeah, it's kind of dumb, but we got to do this." That's not good for the entire industry. So, I think there's a lot of confusion and the narrative hasn't totally been established on these things. Yeah. And I think there's two components to it, right? So, one, the the buyer agency agreement on its surface, I think, is is really really good from the standpoint that it does establish an agency relationship. And, you know, you that's going to govern the the relationship to an extent between you and a buyer. the the fees that get in there that gets a little cluji because it's kind of like, you know, you know, this is this is what I charge, but then I'm gonna I'm still going to ask for somebody to to pay for it if that's your business model. I think that I think that where we where we go wrong is only explaining that side of the transaction to a buyer and not explaining the the big picture of of how the transaction runs, right? So I think the philosophy that I like and you guys might have heard this before is but explaining the three documents that govern a real estate transaction, right? So if you sit down with a buyer and say, "Okay, look, there's there's three main documents that govern a real estate transaction." One is the listing agreement. The listing agreement is what the seller signs with with their agent, and that's going to kind of govern the the the terms of what the seller's looking to get for their house, what the agency relationship is going to be with them, and what their, you know, the length of time their fee structure is going to be. The middle document is the purchase agreement and that's going to govern the transaction and you know we have just like the seller has with their agent, we have a a buyer agency agreement with our buyers. So that's going to say that it's for this amount of time and it's going to be you know this is this is our fee structure and you know these are the obligate these are the things I'm obligated to you to do. These are things you're obligated to me and you know so seller has their agent, you have your agent. We're going to be the ones that submit a purchase offer. they might submit a counter offer or change the terms and then we'll you know go from there. Does that all make sense? And I think that that that gives again so like you had asked this at the beginning. I think when you start really high level and bring it down it it helps people because you're going to you're trying to take off the table um questions like why don't I just go to the listing agent? What's the difference between you and the listing agent? I mean there there are people that sounds foolish to us but there are people that don't know that. right? You're just an agent. I think if everybody were to navigate that way, it would have an immense positive impact in the industry. We'd have astute buyers who have realistic expectations who understand how transactions work. Uh the issue is kind of what you were alluding to. There's there's uh larger corporations within our industry that have workarounds to have a one-time pass to go see a house uh type documents or are trying to push those upon um agents and the buyers into the marketplace. And what happens whenever they do want to, you know, go walk the one house and and they want to put an offer in and they do work with that agent that they just met 25 minutes ago on the car hood, uh signing the documents outside, right? to the seller, right? I guess that's when the the listing agent becomes very important to be able to navigate that. But the buyer's agent could be good at talking and talking up their buyers that they don't know anything about. And then real estate transactions fall apart because relationship's important on both sides and in the middle. You were talking about earlier like we've been really good buyers. Give us the TVs. Like we're supposed to have the TVs. It's not even a negotiation point. You owe us the TVs and we've been great. We negotiated a month ago. Yeah. It's not like we've pissed you off. We've been great. And that is what my contingent point becomes is I prep my sellers to receive uh the right offer from the right buyer who has the right relationship with their uh agent who's bringing the offer to me to a sense and being able to put all those pieces together. Every day I'm like, gosh, what is this agent doing to and it maybe isn't even the agent. I'm like, how well does this agent even know their buyer? who who they're walking through the house like where's this relationship at? Um I don't know change. In 2022 we hit the most number of agents in Indianapolis. I think it was 17,000. I could be wrong. Um maybe it was 2023 right around there. It swell to the highest amount in the ranks um in history. Um and we've steadily kind of we've been ebbing and flowing but going a little bit downhill. Um and the reality is the change from the settlement has the shock waves have not totally um uh affected everything and I think we're going to see agent count especially in the era of well there was a lot of noise but I've not watched any policing. Well, I've not once had a what I was gonna say, which was we're going to see a massive decrease in the amount of agents and it's I think a lot of consolidation and the ones who do it really well and can explain what you're explaining. The fly by night hobbyists are evaporating. I I see less and less of them each passing year. I don't know if that's what you're seeing, but that's what I'm seeing. I don't see that and I don't see that continuing. I I see I see a uh um a world where this this job, if you will, this career is super super it's going to be super hard to be 40 hours a week, right? It might not you might still make okay money, but um if you're working 40 hours a week and you consider that a full-time job, um there are always going to be a handful of agents that that do that. Um, but there's always going to be a handful of agents that are okay selling one or two, doing one or two transactions a year. And I think that the the the problem is, and this is, again, it's just my opinion, but those agents, the one or two agent, one or two transactions a year, they don't get out of the business. I mean, they rarely do because, you know, the the barriers of entry aren't super high. the the fees are are high but not compared to, you know, I think it's just a cost of doing business and maybe they have somebody if they're on a team, somebody's paying it for them. Um, it's the person that is that is doing um, you know, eight to six to 15 transactions a year and they're they're, you know, making a really really good living trying to be full-time. Yeah. And and, you know, a 20 25% downturn in income, they're just like, I'm out, right? I'm out. I'll put in referral and that's because you really can't you're either doing two or three deals a year or you're doing, you know, 15 and above. It's that that middle and those are good agents, right? Those are really they're solid agents. They're not they're not out there um you know, buying leads and not caring and and screwing people over. Um, but those are the ones that's what that's what I fear though that those are the folks that get out of the business and we don't lose, you know, the people that are just in it for one or two deals a year. They don't do any training or continuing education other than what's required. Mhm. Yeah. I think the only reason I said that was because there is a extra step in the process and an extra barricade for buyers agents which is the buyer agency agreement. Yeah. And if you can't, not to say it's like the hardest thing ever to get it signed, but um I think with more education and awareness from consumers on what that is and the fact they can negotiate and have to pick once you've picked, you've picked for the good of the next six months or a year, that's not totally known in consumers right now. And once that is, I think a lot of these weaker agents that can't back it up are out of here. I just think it's going to it to do what you're saying and for it to actually hold the weight that you're alluding to, there has to be some sort of policing, which means money has to be spent that's never going to be spent. There's no policing. Well, well, policing I mean, nobody polices your listing agreements. Yeah. Right. I mean, now the seller would because you're putting a sign in front of their yard and you're posting it on Zillow and you're doing a lot issue that they didn't want you to sell their house, right? Um, but yeah, I you know, I think that it's just I could argue a lot of this round or flat, but what I'm thinking of is um a couple I met with that um they're, you know, trying to downsize one final time to something that they still own, but is is super small, like a, you know, the house is not big, but way too big for them. And I was referred to him by somebody who used to work for me and um then they, you know, they mentioned these neighborhoods they wanted to go to and you know I called the reps there and like oh you know they they're working with somebody and I think they signed something with them and they didn't even know what they signed right you know some somebody went out to interview for the listing before me and you know they were talking about these communities and they're like oh you know we wonder if we could you know do this you know production style home He was like, "Oh, you want to just drive over? You want to take a look at them?" And uh like, "Yeah, of course." Right. Who wouldn't say no to that? But then, you know, it's it it creates a ripple effect just walking through a model home, right? Signing a six-month agreement with somebody. Yep. That they hadn't decided. They didn't understand the repercussions. And that's on them. I'm not saying it's not, but the repercussions more than one client in the past six months of this is right. And that's some of the bedside manner, right? like the repro the repercussions should be equivalent to the conversation of you know the levity of the document you're signing. I had an agent calling me saying, "Hey, John Smith signed with me and you just went and wrote a purchase agreement with him." And I'm like, "How would I have known that?" One, I asked and they said, "No, we don't have an agency relationship with anybody else." And so you're waking up every day to go chase your documents around, right? That's your job now. The reality is you closed that deal, got the commission, and they didn't get anything. So it does kind of go back to the policing element. Um, but I want to see but the the policing element I want to see that's going to have to be tested at some point in time and I think that there's not not enough money really there for somebody to and it's really poor form for a brokerage to sue a buyer because they didn't want to work any longer, right? And it's Yeah. Yeah. What what weight does that actually hold if the relationship wasn't there? Which is what this industry comes back to is the relationship wins and chasing around documents uh isn't going to get you very far, I don't think. Before we go to our rapid, we kind of do like a rapid fire question at the end. I want to pick your brain on the lean to luxury. So, when did the circle start the boutique brokerage with Circle? Um, I started at the tail end of of 2020. I think my documents from the state came through on January 31st of or excuse me, December 31st of 2020. So, 2020. Uh, I I'm curious around a couple of things. One being a how many agents you guys have? 15. 15. So under 20, call that boutique in today's marketplace tends to not be the trend. It's the opposite direction. It's those types of uh brokerages are being either bought or partnered with the larger national nationwide branding and referral across all the things that everybody tries to. We're at properties for a reason. like to have the uh ability to reach across further than just Indiana. What's the what was it calling to go boutique? You know, I I started my career in Tampa and I started boutique. And, you know, to me, I guess we've talked about freedom a little bit. It it gave me more freedom to, you know, run the run the business model, the culture, the core values the way that that I wanted to. Um, you know, I think that, you know, with in national companies, you get a lot. You also, you know, you're you get lumped in with with a lot of of other agents. So, it allowed me to really kind of dictate um what I wanted our reputation to be before we had a reputation. So, like we've got a a questionnaire of it's like six or eight questions and they're not hard questions, but what it does is it establishes the culture of like if you've answered yes to these, you might not know who somebody we bring on six months from now, but you know that they'll have answered yes to these questions too. Right. Right. That they're they're committed to these these certain things. Um so for me really just um you know exploring my creativity and you know seeing if I could do it also. Yeah. Um I think it was a very hard time to do it. Yeah. It might be one of one to be able to to launch 20 2021 beginning of 2021. Yeah. Well, and one of our I mean one of our philosophies uh and business strategies actually is to like make our make our materials so good that you know the agents that come on just like they just use them right versus you know getting creative and you know everyone's in Canva, everyone has a different font and then so that kind of creates some um a stickiness factor like out in the marketplace where u people like oh I see your signs everywhere. I mean we we have less signs than big companies but all of our signs look you know the same and app properties is is is like that and a lot of other uh companies are too but I think it matters the choice to go more on the luxury side. Is that a testament to clients or what's the strategy there? clients background. From a material standpoint, I think that um I think in any business, especially, you know, real estate, it's easier to scale down than it is to to scale up, right? Um and that's why look at the u look at the car industry, right? So, if you have like Mercedes or BMW that have their S-Class or their 7 series, they sell less of those cars than anything else, but they market those cars in order to, you know, sell other cars. I listened to a podcast. This is a long time ago, but um the guy was either interviewing or telling a story about this some tailor in Canada and it was like some big shop and he's got some crazy thread that you know puts out a you know $15,000 suit and he's like how many $15,000 suits do you sell? He's like maybe one a year but the $15 $15,000 suit sells a lot of thousand suits, right? Right. So, you look at like the the Mercedes, the S-Class, which you don't see a lot of, sells a lot of C-Classes and E-Classes. So, and I use that in um in listing appointments, too. Like, and we're not Look, there's very very few I mean, the amount of times that we've been like, we're not a good fit for you, it's probably not because of the property. So, we don't we list any properties. Uh, but sometimes people will be like, "Wow, you know, your stuff is nice and I see expensive homes on your website. Like, do you do our price point, which is still a great price point?" I'm like, "Well, but it scales down easier, right? I can use the same photographer, the same printer, the same brochures, and it's easier to do that than it is to walk into a, you know, $900,000 million house and say, "Okay, now I've got to start from scratch. Got to hire a new branding." Yeah. Um, last question before we go to our quickfire. What does a You just talked about a listing that you were securing that's 22,000 square feet had this special designer and architect and I'm sure it's just so much um you know exquisite details. What is a client like that a seller who is in that category? Maybe it's above I'm sure it's above like 5 million. What are they seeking in a realtor that's different than in the more affordable say sub 500kish price points? I I don't think so I've given this a lot of thought. They're not seeking they're not seeking somebody different a realtor than than probably anybody else, right? Maybe if they're if they're super successful in in business and and in hiring people. This is this is one of the things that we get to see in our business. um you can pretty quickly um establish that the clients that you've had that have had employees and have hired and and unfortunately had to fire people before. Like it's a it's a game changer. You'll hear people say like, "Oh, it's not personal. It's just business." They're not running a business. It's personal, right? Like I I sign the front of paychecks. It's personal, right? like um so I think that that when you get into the um the individuals that probably have more, you know, business or or professional experience and they're selling their houses and those houses might be a lot more money. They're used to hiring people. They're used to firing people. They're used to getting professional advice. So, they're also used to asking a lot of questions. And I think that the the biggest mindset shift that I think people can make in that is that just because somebody is really really inquisitive about your pricing strategy, your fee structure, how long you think it'll take, what your marketing plan is, why you have photos or videos or whatever. It's not because they doubt you. It's because they're curious and they want to make sure that you guys are working on that together. And you know, so the same person that they're going to they're going to treat you the exact same as they do their financial adviser. And there's going to be a lot of questions and you've got to be prepared to answer them, but it's not uh you know how when you're younger and somebody asks you something, they you just assume that they're like they think I don't know what I'm talking about, right? They don't just push things under the rug or just skip over details. And I I I know that that probably excites you because it makes you better because I'm sure you get questions that are maybe ones you've never heard before. Yeah. And and and when you get again, we've talked a lot about like the power of questions. Like asking really really good questions is the key. Here's one that I think everybody could employ and this this it works every time. So you got a home buyer, right? Are you going to be getting a loan or you think you're pay cash for it? You will get two answers, right? Three answers, right? They No, we're gonna we're gonna pay cash. Or they'll laugh at me like, "You think I can pay cash for a $300,000 house?" Yeah. Right. But you've 5% down, buddy. But you've but you've but you've complimented them. Right. Right. You're treating them the same as everybody else, but you're actually getting to the heart of what you want to know. Right. Are you getting a loan on this? Do you need a lender referral? What are you putting down? Right. Like cuz that that's the followup, you know, cuz otherwise somebody with like no bedside manners, like how you going to pay for this? And that's just insulting, right? Being you're you're asking a strategic question, being offensive or not offensive. You're playing offense, not defense. You're you're setting up the stage to be able to uh lift them up. So like on some of the higherend stuff, one of the questions I'll ask is, are there any areas of the property that we definitely don't want photographed or online? Again, that is I need to know the answer to that, but I've got to ask it in such a way that is is thoughtful. They might not have thought about that, but it gets their mind working in a way. Okay. Yeah. In fact, there are Why were you picked more than others in this particular one with luxury? um you know I you know sometimes it's who refers you and I think a lot of times it's it's the um the rapport and the strategy and really again my my presentation is is not about me it's really about the client what their goals and what their timing are and then that just it it leads itself into a lot more discussions you know you guys I don't know if you remember this one of the things I'm a big believer in too is the difference between marketing and selling. So, because I know that that so many people go and talk about like their marketing, I'll tend to take that off the table and say, "Hey, you know, um, anybody can copy our marketing, right? Like we don't we don't own our photographers. Anybody can hire our website company and you can if you have deep enough pockets, you can do the video stuff." I know some big brands that are don't give all the strategy away until they sign. like you can't give it all away because they're just gonna go do it. It's very scarce. Yeah. Yeah. Scarcity mindset is not, you know, not in um No, I do think I do think you want to tell them, hey, like I'm going to I'll give you a price and I'll tell you what we're going to do. But I wouldn't make don't make your decision if you can avoid it. Make your don't make your decision on the on the price that I think you should sell your house. And you know, ideally, I think this is, you know, this is where it should be and this is the range. That could change. It could definitely change in in 3 months when you go to list the house. But at that point in time, let's you and I sit around on the same side of the table and figure out what's what's best for you. Um, but the difference between marketing and selling is huge, right? So, I think that marketing that selling is what happens, you know, if you're talking about a seller and think about your real estate business this way, too, right? Selling is what happens when I'm on the phone or face to face with a buyer or a buyer's agent, right? Selling is what happens as a real estate agent when you're on the phone or face to face with a home buyer or a home seller, right? That's selling. Marketing is all the things we do to get on the phone or face to face with one of these people. I was just explaining that to Trace, our new uh marketing admin. I'm like, we post all these houses out, not to sell the houses, it's to get more houses to sell, right? So tell the story as if it's to get more houses to sell. It's like, "Oh, wait. You don't actually want to sell 1 2 3. No, I want to sell it, but I'm going to sell that like this. I can't think of one time I just posted." It's like, "Here's all these buyers." And it was like, "Yeah, that's that's the one. We just saw it when we Instagram." And it was on Instagram. They're supposed we saw Never, right? Found my home on Instagram. You ever heard that before? But but we're winning relationships, right? How many people when you're in that listing appointment like actually talk about the selling, right? So then we talked about front stage, backstage. Like the real magic happens when you you take your backstage and then move it to the front stage, right? Why should I hire you? Because we have this ABC process on the backstage and we've named it and marketed it and here it is on the front stage, right? So um I'll have that conversation. So I'm taking the marketing off the table. Well, so and so is a great marketer and you know they've got whatever. Great. What happens when the marketing works? Do you remember when I asked you about your So I know your timing. I know where you're moving to. I know where your sister lives because you want to live close to her. I know what your wife does and when her when her, you know, contract job expires, right? All of that was not on accident. It's by design so that I can sit here and say, "Okay, that, you know, if you want to if you want to sell your house in six months, I'd price it here, right? That's the that's the selling aspect." And I think that that far too few um agents talk about what they're going to going to do to actually like help sell the house or put the most money in their pocket or Yeah, I think that's why flipping is really hard because I can call back to early in uh the conversation which was time. people want to flip houses and make the most money, but then list at the worst time because a contract went bad or uh you get you're climbing up a hill when you're not in that right season. Um and not you have to be if you're in the wrong season, you have to be okay to let some money and some other inscillary things go. Hey, look, time's a time is a four-letter word, like literally and figuratively, right? Yeah. Thanks for coming on, man. We have a couple questions that we'll hit you with before we get out. You want to jump in, Tyler? Yeah, absolutely. Do you Let me confirm you live in Caramel. I do. Yeah. Okay. What What's the best place to grab a bite to eat in Caramel? That could change on any given day, but um I would say we we like Saver a lot, but Freelands is a new restaurant. It's it's super bougie, but it's it's really really good. Free freelands. It's in the north end neighborhood which is like 136 and just east of food. Um like high-end American. Okay. It's great. It's really good. Yeah. You seem like the guy to ask. Oh, right there. Thanks. I think you just seem got some class and culture. What's one habit that's changed your life? Thinking about my thinking. M so just more of um you know spend time think about why you think something you know what could be wrong with it why you know am I thinking about it the right way I think that the the problem one of the the the guiding philosophies that with me is the problem isn't the problem the way we're thinking about the problem is the problem it's the preconditions to what you're dwelling upon. Yeah. Like there there is a there's a crazy mind shift uh that happens if if you go um make sure I get this right because it's it it impacted me. Um how do I get the seller to accept my offer versus how do I get my offer accepted by the seller? So in th those two you put the onus all the onus is on the seller in the first one and in the second one the offer is the onus is on me and the offer right so um just small things like that thinking about your thinking can really you know little I can't remember what they call it little tweaks that make huge differences how do you uh create space and time for that you got to carve it out right and like we said with freedom or space. Space creates creates more space. But I mean, you really do need to sometimes just go inside yourself in your own head and say, "Look, I'm going to take hopefully an hour, but even if it's 15 minutes and, you know, not be on the device or be near a a computer and, you know, just sit and think, whether it's, you know, meditation or just um sometimes I'll just sit with a notebook and write down questions." Another really interesting thing that I've been experime experimenting with for the past couple years is um you know the reticular activator, right? That's the whole yellow car thing. Do you see yellow cars? You're like, "No, but now you're going to like see them all the time." Um if you ask yourself a question, well, and then you also know how like if you're like, "Oh gosh, I can't remember that guy's name." And you're driving down the road two days later and you're like, "Tom." Yeah. You know, just out of nowhere, my neighbor all the time, Timothy. So, so your so your your reticular activator is always working. And then so how do you get that to work for you? You ask yourself open-ended questions. And by open-ended, I mean like you don't even put a a a question mark on it in your brain, right? So you just you plant the question there and then just move on. Move on with your life. I've heard this said by Joshua Whiteskin who was like a chess and martial arts prodigy at a young age. He uh said on a podcast that he um asks himself a question ve very important question of like what's the most important thing I should be spending my time on in this season of life or something like that and he'll go to sleep and then often times over doing that repeatedly you arrive at the answer because your subconscious will start to sift the sand to find the gold it's working for you. That's right. And I I love asking yourself questions and not having because you're not going to know that second answer, but it's funny how things are revealed once you set the preconditions on what to dwell on and think about. I like the win notebook. I was sharing this with the team yesterday. Every day I write down what were three wins today, what are three wins tomorrow. Yeah. And and waking up like, "All right, I know where we're headed." Um I like that though. You got to you got to make this the sourdough. You got to think on what you're thinking. You got you have to have the cost ticket. You can also take that to um why is that important? Right? So the the phrase is so that right like I want to win this because we're talking about real estate. I want to, you know, get this this listing so that yeah, I do a really good job for the sellers so that I have a bigger presence in this neighborhood I'm trying to break into so that I can sell 10 houses in there in the next thinking about why is this important, right? It's so often assumed, oh, it's I always want to get 10% more, right? The the saying is like 10% more is the path to hell. Like everyone Jeff Bezos wants 10% more. So it's like, oh, I should naturally want to get higher price listings and more. Well, maybe maybe not. Maybe actually you need to spend more time with your wife at 4:30 p. m. and that's the very best thing for you, right? And so I think it's a really good thing to think about. And I think often times we are shielded from things that we think we want, we don't get. It's cuz you weren't ready for it. And I I mean I I believe in the divine, so I believe in that. Um, and sometimes people do get what they uh were not ready for and you see it blow up very often in those people's faces. So, be careful what you wish for. Um, be careful what you're chasing. You just might catch it. Yeah. Right. Right. What is an area of your last question, I know we've said last question like five times, but genuinely the last question. Uh, what is an area of your life you're currently working on growing? I think it's it's that that balance between um I don't know the answer to the the the work life balance thing. I I don't think that there really I don't know that there is one right like you know when you're when you're working you're you're pretty fully committed and when you're not working you're pretty fully committed. I don't know if that's balance or if that's just like your extreme, right? Like I don't know if you know if somebody were to say work life balance, you'd be like, "Okay, well I'm gonna go work h half an hour at work and then I'll be half an hour will be a dad and then a half an hour for work and then half an hour I'll be a husband, right?" Um so whatever. Work hard, play hard, that sort of thing. Like kind of figuring out what have both feet planted and where you're at. Yeah. Yeah. Versus one in, one out. Yeah. So, I think that that's maybe it's a hard industry, right? Because we all three of us sitting here could open up our computer and justify work. Mhm. And we could do that for hours on end and then we could close it and then the phone rings and we could justify why we need to answer it. Uh all of us are are dads. I'm the newest dad. My son's eight months as of yesterday. And the last eight months that has been the like that's been the main thing. It's like how do I get more? How do I get more time? Uh because I don't want 18 years from now to go, oh, I just wanted the 10% more and I had 100% less with him. Well, it's always the I'm working so hard to have more money, to have more freedom and time for my family. No, you aren't. Right. You can I can go find people in third world countries who have way better relationships with their family and much better memories. And yeah, they probably want more money, but it's like they have it what you're searching for and they have nothing in terms in in terms of material. So, it's a decision. What life do you want to live right now? It is. And you know, bear in mind that uh workaholic is for some reason the only acceptable addition addiction in the United States, right? Like it's crazy if you when you think about it because that helps with the work. It still might not be acceptable, but people are like in a party. I'm a workaholic. It's great. Um, but that's where, you know, kind of thinking about your thinking and and thinking about like, you know, where am I where's my time needed and where's my focus. I love that. I hope people got to the back half of this conversation and skip over the buyer agency agreements we got back down into. Uh, we are over an hour. Um, but anyways, where can people find out more about you if they want to connect with you? Oh. Um, I'm online. Instagram, I guess, Facebook if that still exists. Uh, our website by the time this releases, it'll be fun. Now, certainly real estate. You Google us. I think that's there's some stuff out there. Appreciate you, Jason. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, guys. Peace.