Why This Developer Employs Previously Incarcerated Workers (4,000+ Units)

First thing I wrote down in my journal was I want a hundred units and then a million dollars of equity. Like that was the first thing I was pursuing. That was more based on fear. I really thought that if I had those units and the equity that I would be able to protect myself from the hurts that surrounded me. And once I got to that destination, I saw it was actually a mirage. Like it really didn't change anything. All right. Well, Lord, what do you want me to do? Welcome back to the Roots podcast. I am Tyler Lingal and this is my co-host Max Moore. We are the founders of Roots Realy Co. We've helped investors buy over 500 homes in the last three years. And today we have a special guest and a friend and a brother in Christ, Ethan Fernhabber, an Indianapolis developer who's built and operates thousands of multif family units while using housing as a tool to restore hope in underserved communities. He did this by vertically integrating development, modular construction, and property management. all built around a people first faith-driven mission. Today, Ethan's breaking down how to make the jump from residential to commercial real estate and how to do it in a way that's both redemptive and sustainable. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Ethan. Yeah, what an honor to be with everyone today. Uh we're so excited to dive into your story. Um one of the first questions we like to ask a lot of guests is if you had a billboard on say 465 that people could see all year, what would that billboard say and why? Yeah. Uh the big word on my heart is hope. You know uh to encourage people to be hopeful, to have hope. Uh one thing that my wife taught me is, you know, hope is like a destination, but it's also a pathway. Um so how might we help be a sherpa for other people? Um showing them a pathway to hope. What did it just say? Hope. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Any specific color in the text? I just got a new logo. So, it could be the state of Indiana uh with a heart on top of a flower. Uh something that would, you know, be birthed and be appreciated. Oh, that's beautiful. Uh I think if we lose hope, that would be the devastation. It is. And I that's what we can always tie back to, right? So that that hope can stay alive. Just one person has to continue to have it if all else fails. Yeah. Um, shifting gears back towards real estate a little bit. I was reading this past week, just kind of studying up for the episode, and I read this story of you going from a double wide trailer to an apartment building. And the way that it was written was that if it was just that first property, double wide trailer, skip a few into the apartment buildings. Tell me about that first deal though, buying your first rental property. When was it? What was the price? kind of breaking down if you can recall the numbers. Yeah, it was back in 2003 and it was a like you said a double wide Noburg, Indiana. Uh it was actually an estate sale and it was for $20,000. So the person who owned it died and they were their son was selling it. So that was like the exact amount of our home equity line of credit. So we put it all on the line and got that good example. Yeah. And then uh I think my we eventually did a cash out refi. I think my payment was like 232 a month and we were renting it for like 550. So I was like, man, we're killing it. Let's do that again. So we got our equity back and then we immediately pivoted into uh large apartment complexes by buying two single wides on one lot. Oh, which was an absolutely terrible investment. I'm proud to say both of those homes I got to tear down later in my career, but you know, I've always been good at um spreadsheets and they had high predicted returns but very low returns um in reality. So, what did you take away from that first deal? Yeah, I think um understanding what I'm not good at. I remember replacing the hot water heater and then calling my brother and asking him how to stop the propane from leaking into the home because it was like nine different joints that were leaking cuz I didn't know that, you know, the pipe tape existed. So, I was like, man, if we're going to scale this thing, I'm not doing the rehabs anymore. So, yeah, the maintenance part is terrible. And you know, I came from banking and then ma moved into real estate. So, I've always been better at the numbers and I had the the physical work. Um, but because I'm not good at it, but I have a high regard for it. Um, I've always honored the people who do the work. Um, and I think that's really allowed me to scale and grow, you know, using not an exploitive model, but how might we benefit the people who are actually creating the value um that hopefully all of us would get to share and enjoy. M I think it has to work from the top down where you have to be able to see the vision and somebody can come in and and make that a reality and use pipe tape to not have propane leaking into the double white trailer. Um you said something that I want to highlight which was predictive returns were extremely high in the Excel spreadsheet. Yeah. But in reality it was low. Yeah. Is that true for all single family? Oh single family is so tough. You know I think you know it's just difficult scattered site you know you don't have control everyone is built differently you know a different SKUs in each one I mean you know uh we built the company and we did maybe 150 single family uh renovations and then eventually sold those homes as you know I figured out after a long period of time that it's really hard to make any kind of um profit within the single family market. But I go back to monopoly, right? Like you know, three green houses, four green houses, one red hotel. So how can you create equity within that single family market and then reinvest it in something larger that's more predictable and more easily controlled? Is it possible to skip the single family to go straight? Uh it wasn't for me because hasn't been for me either. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, you know, I guess, you know, if you know, generationally there were large amounts of wealth passed on to me, then I would be able to, you know, invest in a bigger deal. But I know sometimes uh the people aren't ready to steward that amount of wealth either. So, I I would look at uh single families as a great training ground. Um, but it might not be, you know, it depends on someone's assignment. You know, if you're like, hey, I just want to own three homes debtree and I'm going to have that as my retirement, like that's great. But my specific assignment, it was always more. It was always bigger. Um, but it's now it's between 70 and 300 units. So, we don't specialize in thousand unit complexes or anything like that, which is a very specific part of the marketplace is 70 to 300, at least in size when driving around and you're thinking of apartment complexes. There's a lot of units in there that you can't realize. You can't judge the book by its cover. I've pulled into some that I'm like, "Yeah, there's probably a hundred here and it's like 500 just the way that they're stacked into each other." Yeah. Um, no, that's awesome. I I always we obviously do a lot of single family investing and we help people invest and I feel like we serve right now as that gateway into the market. Uh, and we are experiencing a lot of clients learning those lessons quickly. Yeah. Expected returns uh to be great, but oh, we have this eviction and the tenant, guess what? Tore everything up and that's it. It's just a one material house. It's expensive to replace the things that you just bought. Uh it's a cycle that's uh can be exhausting for sure. Yeah. Within your story, we all know kind of the way this has gone up to 500 5,000 units with renewing and volume and helix all working together. We'll I'm sure get into that, but you use the word assignment, which I think is different because like the doctor who's investing for one single family home for the 20% IRR Yeah. they quit, right? They're like, "This is too much work. I'm going to go back to my IRA just giving money to my brokerage account. And that's the the the way the cookie crumbles for some people, but yours was obviously more perseverance. I think because of that word assignment. When did you realize that? Was that from the very beginning with the double wide or no? When when did that kind of Yeah. My first, you know, the first thing I wrote down in in my journal was I want a a hundred units and then a million dollars of equity. Like that was the first thing I was pursuing. But that was more based on like fear, you know? I really thought that if I had those that unit and the equity that I would be able to protect myself from the hurts that surrounded me. And once I got to that to that destination, I saw it was actually a mirage. like it really didn't change anything. Um, so then it was like, "All right, well, Lord, what do you want me to do?" And so the the next assignment I got was 40 communities by 2030. Um, and a community can be an apartment complex or it could be an organization or some kind of redemptive space. And happy to report 2026 that we're there. So we have over 30 apartment complexes, five operating entities and um my of redemptive spaces that we're we're operating now. Um so now the question is how can we go deeper instead of wider? Um so how can we be more intentional about the way that we operate within our apartment communities and how can we impact our employees lives the most? Um, so it's interesting because I feel like it follows your relationship and journey with Christ. Yeah. Which I I want listeners to hear that because that they might be seduced by the 5,000 units or millions of dollars of equity, but that's not what that's not what gets you up in the morning. And I know that. Yeah. Like the first time I went to your office, you and Eli, your VP of Helix, prayed over me for like an hour and like we talked about business for maybe two seconds and I was like, "What?" I was like confused, but I was like also joyfilled. Yeah. And so I'm just interested. Would you say how would you say your relationship with Christ um intersected inside that journey of realizing, you know, you want to do 40 communities, etc. Like Yeah. Yeah, I would say that it started with surrender, right? I had to die to myself um and give up at a point in time in 2009 when we were going through the financial collapse. Um you know, I was close to bankruptcy, right? I had so many single families and we ended up taking all of our equity and putting it down on one multifamily that we named after our church that we were attending. We still own it today. It's in Anderson, Indiana, 132 units. And so that uh the income stream from that multifamily prevented my bankruptcy during those dark years. Um and then eventually, you know, I think it's just like greater intimacy every year, you know, greater intimacy with the Lord, greater intimacy with my spouse, you know, trying to get to the person that the Lord intended me to be. uh more authentically how I'm built, you know, what I what my specific assignment is. And you know, business is a great way to rub off uh some of the sharp edges that we have. Um so this idea of how do we balance truth and grace in our whole life? So with the contractor who doesn't perform as planned, how do you, you know, look them in the eye, set expectations, you know, you don't want to go the sue me route, you know what I mean? But what was fair, you know what I mean? How do we how did we get to this place? How do we create expectations and agreements before we begin on a journey to cause the disruption to be less over time? And I really thought like by now I'd have it all figured out, but every single day I'm learning, you know, and I think like every human being I interact with is a treasure bearer for me. Like even the lady with a sign on the side of the road holds a treasure that she wants to share with me. And when you change your outlook, you know what I mean? and look at every single human being as God's most precious possession. It just changes the way that you act. Um, so you can't just walk into this industry and want wealth. It doesn't work. I don't think you can fake it. A lot of people can. Yeah. And make it uh work out. But you said something that's extremely important, which is that real estate can just uh take those edges and just make them nice and smooth. You can get all of the rough parts taken out. Um and it'll shape you ultimately. And and that's like you walk in and it's just ignorant, ready to go. And spreadsheet says 20 grand on this double wide, it's going to look great. Yeah. And you know, in reality, it's a a trailer that you have to that you now own and you have to take care of. And it isn't something that is in your possession. And when the water heater breaks, the answer can't be take a cold shower. It's literally not a spreadsheet, right? It's not. It's actually a threedimensional thing with a soul. The soul is living in it, right? It's incredibly important, right? Where's the transition or the calling or assignment to um employ past incarcerated? I know with uh value mod. Yeah. Every is it over 50% of the workforce at value mod? Over 25. At Value Mod, just maybe speak to what Value Mod is and how that came to be. Yeah. Um well, my uh father-in-law employed the formerly incarcerated and currently addicted up in Wisconsin. Um and he was a great role model for me. He was a a carpenter who worked with his hands his whole life. And so, you know, with Steve as an example, we started a re-entry program uh probably seven or eight years ago with John Gammon. He's our director of re-entry and um just uh is one of my spiritual mentors. Um, so yeah, John hired Ronald and the re-entry program was birthed and um, so we started doing apartment renovations in some of our uh, communities that we were purchasing. We did a lot of acquisition renovation and we bought transit vans and sent people where the work was. Um but when um my co-founder Matt Crouch had the idea of volume mod, the idea of bringing that people group indoors to the same place every single day was super attractional. It's just hard to have a huge impact on a dispersed community. Um, so we had that as part of our mission to employ the formerly incarcerated individuals and I'm proud to say that they're some of our most loyal and trusted individuals. I think the potential that exists um in the 50,000 heartbeats that are locked up today in the state of Indiana is um is way underestimated. And in my experience, like turning your back on problems doesn't make them better, doesn't make them go away. So if you imagine a roof over our entire state, how are we taking care of, you know, some illnesses that exist within our society? Um, and I think if we welcome those people who are exiting incarceration, provide them housing, employment, transportation, and daycare, I think the recitism rate is going to go down tremendously and that'll benefit everyone. Yeah, it will. And a a lot of those transitional programs don't work. There's a lot of good hearts in the direction there, but I don't know why, and I don't want to get into the politics of it, but it seems like the failure rate is higher than the success rate and what I've seen and heard from others that I didn't even know knew you and our network because this is such a small city. um and the praise that they give on value mod and and how value mod is shaping and being redemptive. It's impressive to see. And we got to spend some time in October, you and I, at uh St. Myra in Indiana at a silence retreat. It wasn't a ton of talking, but there was plenty of downtime and I got to know you better. And in that, you rubbed off on me and if you remember, I brought a problem, which was my GNC to there and the performance of that. I ended up hiring a guy by the name of Jason. Jason, I hope you're watching. Um, he is not formerly incarcerated, but he's been through he's had life. He's 45. Sure. Still trying to to figure it all out. And I took the risk to buy him a car and employ him. Yeah. And which found like monumental to do for me. Yeah. Um, and I'm proud to say like 3 months later, the store has completely turned around. Come on. It's been great. And I think what we were praying for is that there was some sort of relief valve there, which I felt like probably the room was intending that to be a closure plan and the Lord had completely different work. Amen. In store. So, it's been a great journey and continue to pray for it. But I want to share that even if it doesn't work out, no one can ever take that away from you, Max. I mean, that's a huge deal, right? I mean, yeah. Right. In eternity, are we really going to care about our P&L? the business success. Will we be talking about it? Will we be bragging about it? No, it'll be about souls. Well, and God owns it all, right? Like either you believe that or you don't. You know, even all the 5,000 units like I'm renting them from the Lord. They're not mine. You know, like stop making the loan payment, you know, figure out the bank will get them and then don't pay the taxes. The government would get them and stop breathing. It's the Lord's. It was his earth, everything in it, you know what I mean? So, I'm just renting it. Um, as well. Yeah. Just stewarding it for the moment, right? I love that. Yeah. Um, I want to get into a topic and I find it hard for some investors like you to, not that you would find it hard to do this, but I feel like when you're up in the clouds buying these apartment buildings, it's just it's another single family home for you, right? you know, uh, how to analyze it, what the rents are, you need to hit to cover the debt service and all that. It seems really complex for the maxes and I's, the AJ's that the traces, um, that's our producers who are maybe wanting to get into that. And I'm not saying everyone should be a commercial real estate investor, but what was that jump like from the single family homes to the commercial? And how does someone do it who's like on loopnet searching just treading water like how do you actually do that and get into that if that's what your assignment is? Well, in real estate you make your money when you buy the deal, right? So try to look for an opportunity, right? And you should be able to smell that more than see that. Um, so what did I do to sniff out opportunities like sheriff sales were one thing, right? So, buying vacant foreclosure houses, you guys probably know about that. There's also US Marshall sales. I purchased, you know, an apartment building through that. Uh, USDA rural development. I purchased several smaller assets that were all vacant um from them. And, you know, so those are in underserved areas. And if you want abnormal returns, then you've got to do abnormal stuff. Like that's just how it works, right? Um, so I was in banking before I got in real estate in a distressed environment can create wealth. It could be terrible or you could, you know, buy at a great value. So for me, you know, getting into smaller apartment complexes and then purchasing them at a greatly reduced cost was a great way to create wealth over time. Um, I would, you know, just affirm you guys like if you're operating 6, seven, 8, 9, 10 units, like it's the same thing. It's just add a zero or two and then add more lines on your expense statement, you know, like our budgeting like it's super brutal. We got like 10 different tabs and they all come together on one tab and then there's like 400 lines. So understanding where the money is coming from and understanding where the money is going is super super important. So account for your single family like it was a multif family, you know, and so and you guys know how net operating income deres value. Like think about the cost of a flapper for a toilet and then how much that toilet flapper would actually change the value of the asset. you know, if you do 20x on everything, like the $10 item's now a $200 item, like as an operator, you know, you've got to pay attention to all those details cuz, you know, the dimes will make you millions in real estate when you extrapolate um their value. It's funny how I just talked to Guy East, who also I think was on your guys' retreat. Yeah. He's been on our podcast. people should go listen to it, but he's like a medium-term rental kind of expert. He does workforce housing um where they're building a lot of these data centers, but he's selling a duplex in um Greenfield. And I asked him like, "This is making 6,500 a month. Your mortgage is like a,000. Like, why are you selling this? This is so profitable." And he's like, "I can't add any more value." He's like, "I could make it produce 10,000 a month. The value in residential is based on the comps." So, he's like, "I can't cash out refi more. I can't sell it for more. It's It's based on the appraised value. The return on equity probably outweighs the cash on cash, too. So, he's just like, I'll take my 200 whatever,000 equity and put it into a motel. He's like, then when I raise that income on my P&L, the appraiser will tell me it's worth 2 million versus 750. Always trading up, right? And the other thing is like keep your chips on the table. Some guys, gals, they make a little bit of money in real estate and then they buy a big single family residence or a couple of new cars and they took their chips off the table. You know what I mean? My chips have stayed on the table, you know? So, you know, like our house we bought at a foreclosure for $222,000 and $1 cuz we were the only bidder at the sheriff sale. You know what I mean? like we didn't trade up into the mega mansion, you know, we wanted to keep the money within the business. And if you look at what compounding returns can do if you keep your real estate money in real estate and keep trading up in asset classes, that's a really great way to create wealth, but you got to give it decades, not months, you know? I mean, there was, you know, 10 years plus just grinding it out every single year. You know what I mean? And so it, you know, but if you fell asleep in 1990 and woke up in 2020 with the same amount of real estate, like you're doing okay, you know, so buy as much as you can, then hang on tight, and then give it 30 years. You're going to be all right. How long do you keep your chips on the table per property before you trade up? Is it is there a set? Yeah. So for me, it's 70 to 300 units. If that's the assignment and it's 30 multifamily communities, I want to keep 30. So if I build a new one or acquire a new one, then there will be some trading within the portfolio. But then you can look at which one doesn't have a community center. You know, which one is in a neighborhood that or which one are you not doing as well as you could with like maintenance or staffing or area or location? And for me, my assignment was just the state of Indiana. So, you know, there's a great ideal in Ohio. That's great. It's just not for me. You know, that was going to be my next question is could you replicate the 5,000 in a different state and without you being replanted in a different state? That's I wouldn't be me doing it. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, your assignment minus 30 in the state of Indiana. So, you know, I want to be able to visit every deal every year. I want to wish every employee happy birthday. I want to experience this journey with these other other human beings and I don't you know like I'm not going to be some of the more prolific developers in the state. Um just because you can doesn't mean you should. Um no and I I love that we have a big influx. How we got started was helping people from out of state purchase here. Yeah. And that has been we've learned along the way might not be the best way to go about it. If it's just on a simple return schedule, um maybe there's a case to make if you are here and then you split time and you know you have some roots in Indiana. I think that you can make it work. But from distance in the single family land, if it's not working with people that are here, I don't know how it works with the people that are at Apple or some big developer here. in real estate full time. Yeah. And you can touch the door knob and go through the threshold and and see the the problems. Um what's a better way to do it from distance if you have if you are a tech guy that's got mega millions and you want to be able to diversify? Yeah. Well, I had the high compliment of somebody referring uh an investor to me and he said, "Look, it's all about who you hit your wagon to." Mhm. So, you know, think of me as a horse, probably a Clydesdale, and I we go out and we take new ground, right? Um so, we are a good operator. We negotiate well. We have good systems and processes. We take care of our our um our residents, you know, we care about building community. We've got tons of great relationships here. So, if you're a tech entrepreneur, I would I would hitch my wagon to somebody like me. Yeah. And Indianapolis is got a heavy anointing for great apartment developers. I mean, all around the nation, but they are based here. So, there are lots of great operators, you know, and and I would say like with the upcoming people like you guys are the creative class, right? Like so do development different, you know, like don't try to mimic what everyone else is doing, right? Yeah. Exactly. Right. You guys can be the fresh wind within the development space. So, you know, like if you're doing, you know, a some kind of like Airbnb model in a remote location using dissimilar materials, it's better than, you know, a crappy two-bedroom in a challenging area of our city, right? Yeah. heads home. Dang it. So, we got to head back to Danville is what Ethan's saying. Um, absolutely. And we can make it happen. Does that like tactfully look like a 401k? They can you can invest in real estate within a 401k, right? That's how it works. It's complicated. You can do it. You've got a Yeah. version self-directed, right? Self-directed. Yeah. Yeah. Does carry risk like any investment. Yeah. I I just want to better service clients. And when I, you know, we've had Tad on the show and we've gotten to talk to CB and the more and more that I have connection with you guys who are doing it on a bigger scale, I realize that there's just a better way for those clients to invest and to maybe be a silent partner and a just be an LP, just invest in bet operator and not be take on a second job as an operator. I think that's what they realize, right, is I I just had a guy yesterday on the phone saying, "I can't rent out this last unit." And I was like, "Have you been on the street?" He's like, "No, I was told." Well, you were you were told that's where you messed up. Yeah. And your property manager told you this rent rate. Well, guess what? I know the rent's $300 less than you were trying to get. Yeah. It was like really simple. It's like, "Dude, your your assumptions were just all wrong." Yeah. And I had to be the one. Here's what reality the bubble Yeah. And he's like, "Oh, you know, it's dawning on him. maybe I wasn't the best operator for this particular duplex. Yeah. Even at a duplex scale, right? Yeah. Um that's where the Bigger Pockets is is awesome for empowering people. But they always say look in your backyard first. Uh you know, he's from Boston. Uh well, if you don't you can't invest in your backyard, then then find someone who is in the backyard like a you guys like a you know, a Helix or Milhouse. Yeah. say that in 2026 I felt called to raise capital. What does that look like? How do I do that in practice? Yeah, we're trying to do that right now. And we always say relationships are more important than transactions. So, we're just building relationships. Is it just a phone call with the deal? I know I have the relationships. I just think I need to click the speed dial button. Yeah. Well, put together a compelling pitch deck. If you find the right deal, the money's already there, you know, and so, you know, lack of capital, like that's a lie. There is no such thing. It's a lack of creativity. It's lack of vision. Yeah. That really causes deals to go unfunded. No, that's a a great call. Where what equity position, if you were just mentoring me, should I have in a project? Where should I personally have my money at? Well, I would say retain as much equity as possible. You know what I mean? And you you're the first deal that I did, there were some duplexes that we bought and I was like, I'll do all the work if you put up all the money and that's the way we did it. And then we were 50/50 partners and, you know, I was a good steward of the the capital that was there. But then, you know, we leased it up, stabilized it, resold it, and then we rolled that from 33 duplexes into a 152 unit apartment building. We, you know, so keep your chips on the table, trade up in asset classes and then create a compelling vision and then more important than anything else, like find a really good deal. You know what I mean? Like don't find a lot. It's easy to have conviction when there's a good deal in front of you, right? because you're not worried for them. And that is probably sniffed out from a lot of investors. Yeah. Well, and you just glazed by Danville. Like that's going to be a real thing. Like what moves are you making today to get ahead of the wave that's coming? Yeah, we'll talk after planted roots. We don't want that go public. No, I mean my dad and I have a have a building and you know, maybe I think there's a world in which Max could partner with us. But um with the 50/50 deal, is that how you've continued to scale into your new investments? You do all the work, you raise money at 50. Is it more complex these days? Way more complex. I'm sure it is. Yeah. Well, and there's like it's concentric circles. Have you guys heard of like oas before? Nope. The yogurt company. What do they have to teach us? Let's learn. No, I'm joking. It's like the 8 to 12 people who are closest to you, you know. So with those people, they're on they're at a different level than anyone else. And then it's like concentric circles, you know, and so the people who are closest to you will do the most creative things with you because they trust you, right? Um because you know, business always operates at the speed of trust. Yeah. So, think about the 8 to 12. They know you best. They'll be most unique. And then as you start to just, hey, we blind emailed someone. They're going to want a deal that's, you know, more standard within the industry. But there's a lot of deals that never see the light of day because of the 8 to 12, you know. So, I need to become a simplifier to write or actually hire a simplifier. I'm not going to become a simplifier. My problem is those emails get quite complex. Keep your money. I think you're on the same table as a simplifier. Yeah, there's the complexifiers in the simplifier. I don't know if you heard of this. No, that's mental model. It's awesome. It's just basically there's some people that want to like take in all the information and like make it complex for them and then you know share it to the word simp and then there's other people that like a bunch of information coming in is complex. So, let me simplify it inside. It's just how you um gather information and perceive complex problems. Yeah. Simplifiers versus complex complexifiers in general tend to be like the stereotypical like introverted person that wants to be on a whiteboard or computer by themselves figuring all out before they say a word. The simplifiers are usually talking to learn. They're like asking all the questions. And this is super generic. It's like any of these personality things. But Peter Cervos, uh, who I think is in your Tiger, I don't know if you're in Tiger 21. Mhm. Uh, he just shared a slide deck, um, to us that had this mental model. I found it, it's cool. It just gives you language to understanding how different entrepreneurs think through problems. So, I'm sure it's out there if people want to look it up online. Um, and when I go to raise capital, I'm I'm the complexifier to the email. It's like the meme, the math, and the guy looking it over. Just a question mark above there. Yeah, Steam delete button. Makes sense. Yeah. And sometimes as simple as, hey, I need, you know, I need the money and you're going to have 50%, but I'm going to do all the work and here's you're going to make and they say yes. Yeah. And it is. And a lot of people with money don't have a lot of time. You know, there's huge transactions that are just done via text message. You know what I mean? It's not about the best transactions. Yeah. Yeah. Often times. Yeah. I got to stop. Just a quick call. I got to stop watching The Wolf of Wall Street and just start texting. That's a line for the year. Yeah. What goals are you working on now going forward? 40 communities. Are we keeping those communities? Are they going to change? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, to allow these communities uh freedom, abundance in my own life and all the lives that I interact with is super important uh with me. Um we're you know trying to have each entity as its standalone entity as well. So each one of our entities has a specific leader either president or vice president whose job is to carry out the the task of the entity. Um and you know so how can I pour into those leaders as they pour into other people? You know I don't want to exit like I love waking up and being me every day. I mean, I get to go to an office at a house factory and open up a door and see a hundred human beings all working to make two new modules every single day. Like, oh, that's wonderful. I know. That's so much better than the Salesforce tower. You know, you can smell wood, you could see wires being ran, you know what I mean? You can do fist bumps, hugs, high when you're kind of in an underserved community where that is based, right? Yeah. There's tons of potential creativity in that community, the Far East side. And I've learned and developed so much by, you know, being a part of that community. Now, I love uh the the thing that I hope people hear is that you see the treasure everyone has, which I think it's not you. I think it's uh Jesus in you. I think that's what he sees in all of us is, you know, the treasure that's um beneath us and our egos and what we're trying to prove until we just open up our palms, you know, to receive. Yeah. Um we have some rapid fire questions we like to end with. Um that's a harsh transition. Uh AJ AJ will smooth out the course. What is uh a celebrating with your wife? What's your favorite date night spot in Indianapolis? Uh, probably the the Rusty Bucket on 86 and Ditch. We're pretty cheap dates. So, we just like to hang out and it's a spot where we can have a great conversation and doesn't require that much complexity and sounds like a dive bar. No, I know it's not, but it's a predictable experience. So that is the first time someone has said somewhere that I have been. All right, let's go. Rusty bucket. I don't All the VIPs, Max. Rusty Bucket. You guys will hang out. Rusty Bucket. I'll be at steakhouse. Just kidding. I'm joking. You'll be in whatever restaurants everybody says in Caramel is what ends up happening. The true caramel fountain, all those. But yeah. What is one habit that changed your life? I would say uh fasting um each well it's probably been seven or eight years I do 40 days per year um and you know for me I'm kind of a pleasure guy so saying no to certain foods and you know things that are uh where I experience pleasure has allowed me to build my own self-control and then also like as your calorie deficit um the world gets a lot smaller so it's easier to pay attention to the meaningful things in your life. Some of the outside stuff becomes a lot less distracting. So when you're cold and you know like tired and not feeling great and you know like does it really matter? Nah. So yeah, I would say that's that's a good keystone habit. Um, typically it's towards the front of the year. This year it's going to be around Lent. Uh, we're doing uh a fast together uh through Multiply Indiana for 40 days and um that'll be the the the initiative this year. Yeah, I love that you're fasting for 40 days or is that just daytime hours? Uh 40 days per year. So some years it's like 21 days and then a 10day and then some one year it was like 40 days straight and I lost like 38 pounds and like it was a it was like a all liquids uh all liquids fast but each year it's just Lord you know what are you calling me to give up this year of my life and when and then as he would prompt just to to be obedient and and so yeah it's a good keystone habit to remember that you know it's the spirit man, not the flesh man, that's actually in charge of this operating system called a body. I love that. I'll join you this year. I've never fasted. Never habit. It's all I haven't done a lot. I just thought about it this morning. Maybe the Holy Spirit was preparing me. Uh it's like a lost habit. Like I've been talking to some church friends. They're like, "Well, Jesus didn't command us to fast." But it's like, no, look at what he did and look at what all the apostles did. Yeah, they were all fasting. It was so it was assumed he would fast. So, he didn't even have to say it. Just look at what he did. Obviously, you fasted before his ministry. Um, last question. U, I know you you love home and you love where we are in Indianapolis. You obviously have built enough wealth you could go move to the beach somewhere, but you stay here and plant your feet here. What is one word you would use to describe Indianapolis? I would probably say potential. You know, I just think that, you know, the the relationships that we have here are truly exceptional. You know, we're like they always say about like the seven degrees in India it's like one or two degrees, you know, before you know other people and you know, people like stick here. So you can have like generations, you know, that would, you know, treat each other with dignity and respect and do business together. And so I uh, you know, I'm just expectant uh for what the Lord will do in this city and state and the decades to come. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. It's why I'm here and that's why we're planted here. This has been another episode of the Roots Podcast. Ethan, thank you for joining. It was a pleasure to have you. Make sure to like and subscribe and share. Peace.